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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
148
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 02:19:43 -
[1] - Quote
Eklykti wrote:So, when PL used the monkeysphere exploit, CCP said their logs show nothing. And now, whel PL **** overheated the fan, you are 'investigating'.
It was never used in AT matches.
PL is an honourable alliance. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
148
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 06:48:44 -
[2] - Quote
If there's no tangible evidence that foul play occurred that's demonstrable as fact, CCP have no other choice. They can't find a group guilty for something on the basis of an unverifiable log and some rabble-rousing. Though of course, if they find something then it's not a problem.
That said, I think they definately need to think carefully about rules on collusion for next year, if people can't trust the tournament then winning means nothing. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
149
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 15:53:50 -
[3] - Quote
Helo Dhals wrote:This is literally why we can't have nice things.
CCP puts together a tournament for pilots to test their mettle and instead, greed takes over and it becomes about how much you can get away with. Don't be surprised if the alliance tournaments go away after another incident like this.
Yeah, I don't think anyone would be that surprised if this was the last AT
I mean, the same team doing the same thing after previously being banned for it.
Ironically, they could have easily just have won. No team came close to beating either of their teams. Fielding 2 teams is within the rules, sharing setups and AT ships is within the rules, they just didn't need to fix their own matches. Had they just genuinely fought each other they'd still get exactly the same share of AT ships and prizes because agreeing to split prizes is also within the rules.
Seems that wasn't enough lol.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
150
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Posted - 2015.09.16 16:25:34 -
[4] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it? An accusation made by one of the team players on the Hydramel team led to the investigation that's currently taking place which either will, or will not, turn up concrete evidence. That's what investigations are for.
One of their own players making the accusation is a good case for assuming that there needs to be an investigation.
I'm not sure which part wasn't clear to you.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
150
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:34:38 -
[5] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote: be honest and speaking up after the match, to CCP if needed. How bout that? DHB could speak up, why not the others?
I would expect in the course of the investigation, the other players on the Hydramel team will be given a chance to speak up. As their account and possible prize ship is on the line, I hardly imagine all of them are going to deny anything happened if infact, like DHB, they were duped and didn't realise until the last stages that their actions had actually been predetermined at a BBQ event sometime before.
This is Eve, as so many people have pointed out, their loyalty is to themselves and not some imaginary corporation and e-bushido. IF there were clear signs something was amiss on the final stages like DHB asserts then they aren't going to go down with the ship when they know full well that others are going to save themselves. And why should they? This was collusion at the highest level, the actual grunts that did the work were, according to DHB, oblivious until the 2 parts of the team met.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:54:56 -
[6] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it? An accusation made by one of the team players on the Hydramel team led to the investigation that's currently taking place which either will, or will not, turn up concrete evidence. That's what investigations are for. One of their own players making the accusation is a good case for assuming that there needs to be an investigation. I'm not sure which part wasn't clear to you. All that is perfectly clear. I think CCP absolutely needs to carry out an investigation. I do think it was a massive blunder for them to announce it publicly, but that is a different matter. What I find really daft is that so many people are predicting the result of that investigation and calling it against Warlords and Camel. Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all.
People do that, I haven't as I'm happy to wait to see what CCP find.
As for calling it publicly, that's just to show they're looking into it, rather than just silently ignoring questions about DHBs statement. You can't really fault CCP for doing that.
Yet you've made your own prediction, so I guess you're no better. The history isn't so good. Isn't at least one of the key players banned for RMT? Yet here he is trying to get his hands on trillions of ISK in prizes. The team accused has also done exactly this before and was banned from participating the following year.
What you're actually saying is you don't think they'll have left anything concrete as evidence that can be used to prove what they've done, so I'll just wish you the best of luck getting your AT prize ship back :) |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
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Posted - 2015.09.16 17:40:34 -
[7] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: But what I'm "actually saying" is that I would not be in the least bit surprised to find you've all been trolled by HYDRA yet again.
The point at which the ships were taken it ceases to become a troll, even if that's how it started.
There's no way Hydramel can continue to exploit the same flaw in AT rules, so it hurts them more than anyone else. They've been exploiting it for 4 years now and I can't see how CCP cannot change the rules for next year and allow them to continue doing it.
I too initially thought it was a troll, but if it was, it backfired.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
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Posted - 2015.09.16 17:54:40 -
[8] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:No, that would just be where it escalated to a higher level of trolling.
Sounds rather like they've just pulled up the ladder behind them, doesn't it?
If you were a member of the Hydramel team I'd call that :backpeddling: Instead it's just bad spin.
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:I too initially thought it was a troll, but if it was, it backfired. With so many people going full ******? I don't think so. When you kill off your multi-trillion annual income, that's pretty much guaranteed, it's very difficult, even if you were the offspring of Goebbels and the Iraqi Information minister, to spin this as something positive.
But thanks for taking part.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
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Posted - 2015.09.16 18:33:06 -
[9] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: Bad spin on what?
If it was a massive troll, then it was a massive troll and you are one of it's many victims.
If it wasn't a massive troll, then it's up to CCP to try to salvage what they can from the PR disaster that will follow.
I'd rather it be the former than the later, tbh.
I too want it to be the former, trolling themselves out of trillions of ISK with 1st and 2nd prizes year in, year out is hillarious.
Let's face the facts, Hydramel isn't just better than it's closest rivals, it's way better. I can't speak for teams like Nulli, but in the last 2 years in 7 matches, PL is 1-6 down to Hydramel - that's curbstompingly better than PL is.
So yeah, I don't call losing out on your ability to take 1st and 2nd places every year a ~massive troll~
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:52:48 -
[10] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:
It really depends on how CCP react to the whole episode. That's where the real issue is: the unpredictable element that is CCP.
Troll or not, it only works because there's plenty of scope for this to *maybe* have happened, which means CCP are almost certainly going to have to tighten up on collusion and team sharing rules because it jeopardises the integrity of the tournament.
Even if found not guilty, which in the absence of verifiable evidence is a certainty, CCP can't ignore the fact the rules do need to change and teams shouldn't enter multiple teams with which to take a greater share of AT prizes. It's not like the other teams can emulate Hydramel and also submit additional teams as it means spreading their players across many teams which weakens them, and as we've already established they already can't beat Hydramel at full strength.
So the days of taking 1st and 2nd places are over. 50 Ships instead of 75.
If it's a troll then it cost them at least 2.5 tril to do and that's best case scenario. |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:09:30 -
[11] - Quote
umaya wrote:ITT: people who don't know who bad bobby is.
Also ITT people who should separate the fact that they don't like certain rules vs what is actually being investigated.
The collusion rule isn't actually about how close teams work together, go read the thread, go read fozzies answers. The only thing under question is whether camel and hydra have fixed a match or not.
The point is you can't have two teams working closely together and not worry about collusion with fixed matches.
If you haven't learnt that yet then there's no hope for you. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
155
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 22:53:55 -
[12] - Quote
Hiply Rustic wrote:
So A team from one alliance and B team from another enter the field (although working together, so same team really), A team opens fire as B team sits idly while their ships are destroyed...outcome predetermined by leaders of the two alliances...is within the rules? Or is it only perceived to be within the rules because it was made to seem like an actual fight sort of took place?
It's only perceived within the rules if you 'fight'. Sitting stationary is illegal.
Under current rules you can share tactics, ships and setups with each other so you could just arrange beforehand that A-team flies a comp that beats what the B-team is flying easily - A's Rock to B's Scissors. This allows you to predetermine who will win without having broken any of CCPs rules.
I think this demonstrates how absurd the situation really is.
Considering the numerous ways Hydramel could have done what they've done legitimately, but didn't, I can only conclude that the team captains just wanted to cheat. That's unless DHB made it all up. In which case they didn't cheat but yeah....comedic set of rules.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
156
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:22:42 -
[13] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
At this point we have to assume that u colluded with both teams aswell since your setups lost.
That only works when the 3 teams have already agreed to pool the prizes and split evenly.
As that hasn't happened, your logic has failed.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
158
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 23:30:22 -
[14] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:
At this point we have to assume that u colluded with both teams aswell since your setups lost.
That only works when the 3 teams have already agreed to pool the prizes and split evenly. As that hasn't happened, your logic has failed. How is it a requirement to share prices to collude?
Because you need to gain something from it, not demonstrate stupidity like you're doing.
I've had to deal with some pretty weak arguments in my time, but come on man, did you fall out of a 3rd storey window and feel the urgent need to start poasting?
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
161
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 06:48:50 -
[15] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I'm surprised that you don't already know that I'm a long standing HYDRA member, as well as an ex-member of your own corp in PL. But we can put that surprise down to my ego and narcissism and move on.
Bad Bobby wrote: You and I appear to disagree as to whether there is evidence of an offense being committed under the current AT ruleset. You appear to think that Warlords and Camel have effectively poured petrol over themselves and run into a burning building. I think it's much more likely that they've just trolled the **** out of you, your alliance, CCP and a fair section of the playerbase.
This says it all, you simultaneously claim to be a member of Hydra yet can only suggest it might be an elaborate troll that backfired.
You can't say for sure because you don't actually know and while you think it's more likely it's a troll, you're not prepared to risk your credibility with a definitive answer because you accept that you could well be wrong as it is something the higher ups might have done and not clued you in on.
Interesting insight into Hydra and your position in it. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
161
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 07:12:07 -
[16] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: I didn't claim to be anything more than a long standing member of HYDRA and only that after being accused of being a HYDRA alt.
My apologies, I admit the limits to my knowledge, I wasn't aware that HYDRA was anything but an AT team.
I admire your loyalty to your alliance and your sterling attempts to white knight it during this thread. You've had little to work with and some large logic holes to skirt around. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
162
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 07:40:34 -
[17] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:My apologies, I admit the limits to my knowledge, I wasn't aware that HYDRA was anything but an AT team. Apology accepted. HYDRA has always been more than just an AT team. Obviously the high profile of the AT team has a tendency to eclipse everything else. Now, can we stop slinging **** at eachother and actually have a discussion about the subject at hand?
Yeah, so back to the troll that backfired.
CCP opened an investigation into the matter which would only have happened if someone had submitted evidence via support ticket to warrant an investigation. This, I think we can agree, would be a ticket from DHB Wildcat because no-one else could submit the ticket on his behalf as they can't claim veracity over logs they've actually copied of a random website. No-one else has the insight into what really went on that he had.
A ticket he would never have submitted in the first place according to DHB had his team Captain not delivered an angry post aimed at him in response to his actions.
So this is why, assuming it's a troll at all, it's backfired. Hydramel had not intention of giving up their scheme, they've used it for 4 years and an elaborate troll isn't the way to get rules changes. It's detrimental to their income and makes no logical sense as to why this would all be a method to force CCP into 'fixing' the tournament from being fixed.
Not to mention, people who know DHB think he's too e-honoure to go in for this kind of thing.
I mean, your attempts are valiant, but you're relying on no tangible evidence being left in the client and none of the 24+ members of the Hydramel team folding out of self-preservation - from CCPs point of view it will only take 1.
Even if that does happen, Hydramel forfeits 2.5 Tril at least annual income, with rules changes that only affect Hydramel.
So yeah, it's a backfire if it's a troll.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
162
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 07:51:53 -
[18] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Now, can we stop slinging **** at eachother and actually have a discussion about the subject at hand? Yeah, so back to the troll that backfired. Apparently not.
There's not much else we can discuss.
It's either an elaborate troll that backired, in which case
-or-
It's true, in which case |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
163
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:29:43 -
[19] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:We can't discuss the current AT tournament structure and how that can be improved? I think we're in agreement that it should be a competition between teams, this was highlighted by PL before the tournament started and as it progressed. This led to rules clarifications CCP made as best they could. Ultimately, it seems it wasn't enough. It's not like CCP hasn't been liberal, in this thread alone I've highlighted several other ways that Hydramel could have achieved exactly the same effect without actually breaking any rules, but it seems to some this is no fun unless you break a few of the rules. This is where the danger is for Hydramel, CCP have given them scope to do what they've been doing for years now so this is more of an insult to CCP than anything else. We've already all agreed that Hydramel would have won just as easily without cheating. So I think this removes CCPs choice, they will clamp down on all forms of collusion. Which isn't a bad thing, afterall it's an Alliance Tournament, if you can't get 24 people in your own alliance to run tests then guess what, you're not an alliance.
Bad Bobby wrote:We can't discuss the place that AT ships play in the AT meta and the overall EVE economy? It's a question of balance. It's undeniable AT ships are crowd pleasers, people like to see them on the line and 'sploding, but they are inbalanced and the points cost should start to reflect this. Great if you have them and want to use them, but they should never be the same points cost as the same class of hull. I don't see many people arguing with this.
Bad Bobby wrote:We can't discuss the unstable nature of the EVE community and it's horrendous groupthink? Personally, I hate the 'community' endless whining and personal attacks made directly at CCP employees. Yet they're expected to sit there and endure it endlessly with only perfectly polite responses, they can't ignore it because it would offend the delicate little flowers and they can't give an emotional response because of expectations of 'professional behaviour'. I think the situation is stupid and an indictment on modern humanity. It's not an Eve thing, it's not a gaming thing, it's a moronic culture that breeds entitlement. I rarely get involved, I don't often read eve-o, reddit or any of the others. I saw it in 2006 it hasn't changed any since.
Bad Bobby wrote: You feel that there is nothing constructive or valuable to add to this thread? Only more trolling, insults, rage, ignorance and hysterics?
Basically no, we're all waiting for the outcome of CCPs Investigation and killing time until it's complete. Sure, I enjoy posting and it's made me smile with various defences of Hydramel and what appears to be one guy cycling alts to post implications that PL somehow cheated by losing - ignoring the fact that PL doesn't profit in doing this.
I just like to argue and this makes a change from baiting Americans on pl.com |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 23:02:26 -
[20] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:I've already dealt with all those arguments, please bring some new ones. No you tried to claim Hydra is comparable to PL and gloss over the fact that Hydra and all it's heads were blocked from participating for a year as a lesson for the ruined final and Hydramel is currently being investigated with it's prizes held in stasis.
So, no, not the same as none of that has ever happened to PL.
This isn't because Hydra 'lives on the edge' unluckily being the victim of CCPs judgements, it's because Hydra directly attacks and insults CCP by trying to ruin Alliance Tournaments - this isn't metagaming or trolling as it's target is the company itself, it's just stupid. Which is something PL has never done, even though CCP tries to recruit our best players.
But your spin is worthy of a Dead or Alive one hit wonder, so carry on. |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 03:44:20 -
[21] - Quote
And you've missed that Waffles has never been associated with PL in the way that Hydra's heads are.
Waffles use the same website and services so there's an *opportunity* for it to happen, but PL has clearly never used that opportunity which is evident simply by looking at the results in all of the tournaments ever. I think even you will agree that it's obvious that PL provides no actual support other than cheering those loveable little guys on during their matches.
Whenever CCP decides that because there is a link, even if it's not exploited, and Waffles can't participate then we just live with it as it's understandable that the public can be deceived into that kind of thing is happening when Hydra is clearly doing what it does even if we're not.
It's a shame though for Waffles isn't it? Man, they're loveable. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 05:37:06 -
[22] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: 1) Did Warlords and Camel throw matches / have house rules? Because if they did then they are in breach of the rules.
2) Are the current rules and AT structure fit for purpose?
1) Pure conjecture, let's be real none of us are 'in the know'. According to DHB Wildcat, even he wasn't aware until the final weekend and it was only his frustration that led to an alleged convo over Skype with the team captain where the captain confided in him. The question is, why would he lie and put everything on the line? If, as you suggested earlier, it's a troll then it's backfired for reasons I've stated numerous times and I hardly think CCP are going to look too kindly to their time being wasted all for someones elaborate joke. So to me, in addition to DHBs reputation, it would seem he's telling the truth because there's no alternative motive that fits.
2) I think you said yourself in an ealier post that they clearly are not, which fits in with PLs line of thinking which had been pointing out the obvious problems before the AT even got underway. It's kinda sad as it was so avoidable, I've listed numerous ways the Hydra heads could have colluded within the rules, but because they couldn't, fan favourites like Waffles are unlikely to ever be allowed to participate again because of something that Hydra does and noone else does. I mean, let's face it - it's not exactly ~clever manipulation of the rules that noone else saw~. It's just that the other 62 teams playing in the AT all got it, we didn't have Goonswarm fielding 20 teams just for the lolz or anyone else. To make it much much worse this is all after CCP lopped of a bunch of Hydra heads a few years ago to underscore the point. Again, everyone else got the message except Hydra. It's naive to say that no-one else saw the scope for the abuse when they were saying it before the Tournament started, it's just everyone else understands that taking on the company itself is a lot different to trolling players.
I think we need to face the fact that Hydra is the Lance Armstrong of Eve, there will never be a sincere apology, nothings going to change and he doesn't even think it's cheating. So everyone else pays for Hydra's arrogance even after it was given a very clear warning that singled it exclusively out.
So yeah, CCP is going to have to spend a lot of extra time clarifying AT rules to the minutest detail specifically and solely for Hydra, the other 62 teams got the message years ago. Waffles and any other fan favourites similarly affected will just have to accept they don't get to play anymore. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:15:41 -
[23] - Quote
Wow, 3 poasts to plough through.
I'll get around to reading them later maybe, but one of the last lines did catch my eye as I scrolled frantically for the bottom of the abyss.
Quote:It then doesn't matter how many teams I enter from my multi-headed troll beast. Because I can only win if I win.
As a spectator sport it dies, no-one wants to watch a handful of rich alliances buy up all the AT slots and play with themselves. Again, this is what I said in my considerably shorter poast, Everyone else understands what the Alliance Tournament is except Hydra - I dunno, they just seem to think it's plural or something, whereas literally every other alliance in the game - most notably the ones with the dodgiest reputations all managed to understand it.
Though I do understand CCPs problem, I mean, I'm having a hard time helping you understand and you're not even on one of the Hydra AT teams. I don't want to think how many pictures and diagrams CCP have wasted their time making trying to explain to Hydra Team Captains how it's meant to work.
I really wouldn't be overly surprised if CCP just decides not to bother doing it's annual head banging against the wall ritual anymore. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:17:09 -
[24] - Quote
This is a second post because you seem like a nice enough dude and I don't want people to think you're on your own with your epic defence arguments that span several posts. Trust me, I'm good at distraction. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:18:26 -
[25] - Quote
Yep, that worked. See? Fooled 'em all |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:25:10 -
[26] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:one of the last lines did catch my eye as I scrolled frantically for the bottom of the abyss. Quote:It then doesn't matter how many teams I enter from my multi-headed troll beast. Because I can only win if I win. As a spectator sport it dies, no-one wants to watch a handful of rich alliances buy up all the AT slots and play with themselves My point is that it doesn't matter. If there is no massive advantage to be gained from doing it, we will not do it. Chances are nobody else will do it either. Remove the incentive to do things that are bad for the AT and people will probably stop doing things that are bad for the AT. Continue to directly encourage destructive behavior by giving an incentive to throw matches for your own teams benefit and this **** will continue.
Yeah, I'm sure Lance Armstrong wouldn't have bothered with performance enhancing drugs either if they didn't offer him an overpowering advantage.
Blame the drugs, not Lance. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:31:31 -
[27] - Quote
So what you're saying is after countless warnings and explanations, even though every single other competing alliance gets it, Hydra just cannot possibly resist the temptation to cheat? And it's CCPs fault for not instituting a 300 page explanation of the rules that locks every possible avenue down.
I guess I can agree with that, you drive a long and arduous argument my friend.
It's a shame others, not Hydra, are likely to pay the price for Hydra's inability to just not cheat for once.
Poor ol' Waffles :( |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:50:13 -
[28] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:And it's CCPs fault for not instituting a 300 page explanation of the rules that locks every possible avenue down. No, that's the opposite of what I said.
No offence, but you've also said that you Accept PL, Waffles and Horde are not actually colluding in any shape or form here in this thread, but on your alt in the DHB thread you did make that claim and compared what PL does to what Hydra does.
It's not CCPs job to chase after one alliance spread across several parts because they consistently ruin the tournament. How about Hydra just mans up for once and takes a little responsibility for its actions rather than making "Alliance Tournament" the gig at CCP no-one wants to be saddled with.
edit: I forgot, much like your alliance, what you say comes in several packages.
Bad Bobby wrote: It really doesn't matter if HYDRA is guilty of what you claim or not, the rules still need to be improved.
No arguments there, PL and others have said this for quite a while now. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:52:35 -
[29] - Quote
Unrelated Question: If CCP deletes one of your posts, do 2 more appear in its place? |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 09:43:04 -
[30] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: What I say on Joe when it's all fun and games and nobody is taking anything seriously is one thing. But once a whole host of monkeys start flinging their faeces in my direction, spreading lies and propaganda and making a fairly concerted effort to have me and all my friends banned then a more serious and considered response is justified.
I'm sure you can understand the distinction.
Yeah, I can understand that and it's fine.
We'll just pencil it in as another troll that backfired.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
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Posted - 2015.09.22 10:30:15 -
[31] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: If the final of ATIX had gone the way we had planned, which it absolutely did not, none of this would have happened. Unfortunately we were nowhere near as good at fixing AT matches as we thought we were and the whole thing turned in to the most embarrassing farce.
Seems practice isn't making perfect.
Are we meant to be looking forward to the day Hydra finally perfects their AT match fixing technique?
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:31:23 -
[32] - Quote
I'm being harsh, sorry for that.
Hydra would have gotten away with fixing matches this year if DHB Wildcat hadn't blabbed. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:44:23 -
[33] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Are we meant to be looking forward to the day Hydra finally perfects their AT match fixing technique?
I'm not sure that would be in your own interests. At the moment our problems seem to be more HR related anyway.
If only Hydra just did what the other 62 teams manage to do year in, year out, I think you'd find all your problems disappearing - yet again, you think it isn't your fault. It really is a problem entirely of your own creation.
I don't recall any scandals involving other teams, it's literally just Hydra. it's a shame I seem to have failed to get you to see that.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.22 11:03:37 -
[34] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:Do you really think continuing on this line is going to gain you ANY support? You of all people are in no place to lecture me on effective PR. Mr Rive wrote:You really can't win this one, no matter how hard you try to spin it. I'm sorry Rive, you seem to have forgotten that we did win this one.
No man, you've lost.
You literally said that Hydra's fixed matches but didn't do it well enough while simultaneously saying wildcat is a liar with his logs and you haven't fixed matches despite his reputation that he's built over many years. If you still think he's trolling, then I for one would love to hear CCPs reaction when they find out their time and resources are being wasted.
You have to admit, it really does look quite bad for Hydra and yes, you've defended as best you can with many long posts I'm afraid I didn't have time to read, but you've had so little to work with. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.22 11:15:41 -
[35] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Mr Rive wrote:Didnt hydra get banned for fixing matches like you just said they did? No. HYDRA never got banned from anything for fixing matches. We got excluded from ATX because we entered HYDRA and Outbreak and CCP ruled them ineligible to compete in that tournament. The rules and CCP's philosophy had changed between ATIX and ATX. That left us on the wrong side of the line without any time to change our course. You said yourself that Hydra was victim of CCPs rulings. It's pretty clear that they intentionally found a way to exclude Hydra precisely because of the final the year before that Hydra ruined by badly staging the fight. You admitted as much yourself.
That was the warning. The, "hey, yeah, don't ever do that again moment". I'm not sure why you haven't realised that and done it again this year. Maybe CCP have to explicitly tell the Hydra teams in clear language, like the rules. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.22 11:26:20 -
[36] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:No man, you've lost. Citation?
Scroll up, it's the bit where you basically say "We f****d up fixing matches, sorry you guys noticed, it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the rules getting in the way - CCP need to fix that" |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.22 11:32:38 -
[37] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: I'm sorry but that is all predicated on the idea that we actually broke the rules this year. Which is something you've confirmed is unknown to both of us.
Listening to your sketchy defence and DHB Wildcats post, I can't help but feel it's looking like this did all happen.
Basically you're down to saying that Wildcat must have had a mental breakdown because that's literally the only thing that can plausibly explain the events of the last week. That's a desperate argument.
I would be extremely surprised if other AT members from one of Hydra's heads haven't seen whats coming and confessed what they know to save themselves. They all know it's only going to take a few out of a pool of what 30? 40? and they aren't going to want to be the ones that end up carrying the can. Truth always outs as you've been eloquently demonstrating during the course of this thread.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.22 11:35:22 -
[38] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:
Either way, I don't see how the statements of a HYDRA member that wasn't involved in this AT in any capacity other than as a spectator would make any difference to Warlords or Camel winning or losing the AT.
So you're now backpeddling and saying you have no clue as you're not involved in any capacity. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.22 21:56:14 -
[39] - Quote
As you said Bad Bobby, short of DHB Wildcat having somekind of meltdown, his allegations are certainly true.
So it's a question of probability. Hydra, very probably cheated and fixed matches, just like it has a history of doing.
There just aren't many alternatives that fit the situation. You tried the trolling angle but have conceded that this hasn't all been a troll. There isn't much left, it boils down to either Insanity on Wildcats part or it's true. Wildcat is a veteran player and I've never heard anyone call him insane.
Judging by how you've moved your stance in the last few days I think you're beginning to realise where exactly this is all going.
So, with that in mind, how do you think the 30-40 boys on the teams are holding out? Do you think they're sticking to the story, praying plausible deniability will carry them through? Do you think any of them have folded under the pressure as they realise the situation is looking bleak and it's time to save themselves? Do you think the onus is on them to go down with the ship because honoure, even though many pilots weren't part of the conspiracy and only found out in the final stages like Wildcat? Do you think future Hydra teams are going to put special emphasis on the ability to keep quiet over talented flying? Hypothetically, if some Hydra pilots have spoken freely with CCP adding to the weight of evidence, would you despise their lack of loyalty, would you feel betrayed? Do you have any opinions on why it is it's only Hydra that runs into trouble? PL has won the AT numerous times yet I do not recall any scandal associated with any of the wins. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.23 00:30:17 -
[40] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Overall I think I've achieved what I set out to in this thread and in the absence of a CCP verdict, I can declare victory and take my rest for now.
I'd like to thank the PL posters for being so co-operative. I didn't expect to get such an easy ride.
I was wondering when Hydra was going to order you to stop posting.
Your defence has led to more questions and is flimsy at best, because it rests entirely on DHB Wildcat having a mental breakdown, which according to people who know him doesn't sound like him at all. Not only that, it has to manifest itself in this convoluted bizarre situation where he destroys himself while trying to destroy others. It's desperate and by making you constantly have to repeat it, I think you're realising how incredibly flimsy this defence actually is which is why you want to make your exit. In all honesty, I don't blame you. It seems the rest of Hydra had the foresight to see where this would go and chose not to post at all.
The rest of the Hydra defence is trying to stare CCP down with the tagline "YOU CAN'T PROVE S**T!", good luck with that.
Either way, a sincere thanks to DHB Wildcat, his brave actions will lead to the rules changes the AT badly needs. It's a shame that it wasn't till the end, when he finally won Gold, that he realised it means nothing if you don't feel you actually won it.
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.23 08:39:36 -
[41] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Lovey Dovey wrote:Please provide evidence that CCP barring Hydra/Outbreak for violating rules was actually because they wanted vengeance for the match fixing in ATIX as you claimed.
I'll wait. Sure, I'll swap it for evidence that your opinion matters.
That's a bit mean, none of us are important enough to have our opinions really matter.
He does have a point though about the defensive complex, you do seem to feel that CCP has victimised Hyrda when it's actually CCP who has to deal with the extra workload and problems that having Hydra in creates.
That or you just play the victim card in this thread because there's little else to use as a defence. Let's face it Hydra wiggles the rules in absolutely everything for the best possible advantage, so it is something they'd do isn't it? |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.23 09:08:32 -
[42] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:We were punished for that through the exclusion from ATX, which hit both of our teams, while CCP only decided to exclude one of yours. That's because they had a reason to be vengeful against HYDRA and no reason to be so against PL. We understand that we ruined the ATIX final, we understand that we caused CCP a massive embarrassment and lost them money. We are sorry for that and have no intention of repeating that performance.
But you did repeat it.
This right now, is a repetition.
CCP has been embarrassed, the legitimacy of the AT has been called into question and the prizes have been moved into stasis while an investigation is being held. This didn't happen in ATIX, CCP waited a year before doing anything
PL didn't get punished because it did nothing wrong (traditional definition, not Hydra definition). Crying because PL didn't take the fall what Hydra did isn't likely to get you much sympathy
I don't think CCP will be taking Hydra's 11th promise not to do it again seriously
This is what happens when you deliberately miss-interpret and distort CCPs posts for your own agenda. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.23 10:06:55 -
[43] - Quote
If DHB's logs are skype logs then it's been game over since day 1, most people have assumed they were skype logs.
Skype logs are stored for 30 days by default on Skypes cloud servers and cannot be edited by users. All Wildcat has ever had to do is have a Skype call with a CCP employee and share his screen (inbuilt in Skype) and simply scroll up to the relevent part of the convo - just 1 of countless ways CCP can verify the logs.
It's no secret and I'm sure there are Hydra pilots that have complied fully with the investigation because they knew this was always a slamdunk by Wildcat.
The other 12 pages were just me enjoying myself
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.23 18:51:09 -
[44] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:If DHB's logs are skype logs then it's been game over since day 1, most people have assumed they were skype logs. Skype logs are stored for 30 days by default on Skypes cloud servers and cannot be edited by users. All Wildcat has ever had to do is have a Skype call with a CCP employee and share his screen (inbuilt in Skype) and simply scroll up to the relevent part of the convo - just 1 of countless ways CCP can verify the logs. It's no secret and I'm sure there are Hydra pilots that have complied fully with the investigation because they knew this was always a slamdunk by Wildcat. The other 12 pages were just me enjoying myself I was going to to say "Thats not proof in any way or form, someone can make a skype account and call himself Kadesh, talk to his other account, collude with himself and then submit that as proof. Since you cant proof that it was the actual person it doesnt count" But yeah, if he simply screenshared proof that it was indeed the leadership by virtues of showing it was him in other chat rooms then it probably would count.
He can also look up the users exact skype name while screensharing which will confirm it is the real Kadesh (right click->view profile)
Also the timestamps in Skype would mean Wildcat would had to have prepared all this before the final.
I'm certain many in Hydra have realised this, which is why none of them have posted anything since the investigation began, they've realised the game was up - which indicates they all knew, even if they weren't directly told. (Bad Bobby isn't actually part of the team, he's just a well wisher)
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.24 04:44:23 -
[45] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: However the presence of authenticated skype logs between Kadesh and DHB says nothing about the authenticity of the claims made in them. I could convo DHB and tell him I've just eaten his lunch, he might become upset about that, but his lunch may still be in the fridge where he left it.
But we're already several steps down the rabbit hole. We still don't know if there are any skype logs. Also there are plenty of convos between Warlords AT members that contradict the statements made in DHB's logs. This is why we don't treat hearsay as evidence.
If you read the logs before they were moderated (available on other sites) then you will know that the Team Captain explicitly talked about throwing matches by arrangement between the Hydra heads.
It can be verified from DHB Wildcats client as I described, although not from Kadesh's, as he can delete single messages.
If Wildcats claims are true and CCP screenshare to witness the logs still in place then it's case closed. No room to spin with it. |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
173
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Posted - 2015.09.24 06:44:28 -
[46] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: However the presence of authenticated skype logs between Kadesh and DHB says nothing about the authenticity of the claims made in them. I could convo DHB and tell him I've just eaten his lunch, he might become upset about that, but his lunch may still be in the fridge where he left it.
But we're already several steps down the rabbit hole. We still don't know if there are any skype logs. Also there are plenty of convos between Warlords AT members that contradict the statements made in DHB's logs. This is why we don't treat hearsay as evidence.
If you read the logs before they were moderated (available on other sites) then you will know that the Team Captain explicitly talked about throwing matches by arrangement between the Hydra heads. It can be verified from DHB Wildcats client as I described, although not from Kadesh's, as he can delete single messages. If Wildcats claims are true and CCP screenshare to witness the logs still in place then it's case closed. No room to spin with it. No, as I pointed out in that quote.
What? You think because two people who are merely participating in the AT chatting away and not aware of match fixing this would somehow counteract the Team Captain explicitly stating that the matches are fixed?
Or are you just hoping that the logs are not from Skype or similar verifiable source?
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
178
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Posted - 2015.10.06 18:42:37 -
[47] - Quote
Can we get a reaction from Bad Bobby to the recent development? |
Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
185
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Posted - 2015.10.08 15:59:48 -
[48] - Quote
Kadesh wrote: I regret nothing. If i could rewind time back, I just would be more opsec, so that no little f*****r annoys me after the tournament. Anyone who has other mindset with ~honor~ or any other high-moral bullshit doesn't deserve to win. This is eve.
Bad Bobby wrote:Captain Thunk wrote:Can we get a reaction from Bad Bobby to the recent development? Sure! See you again next year!
Yep! I can well imagine us all being forced to endure another episode of this. |
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